Benny The Butcher and 38 Spesh first connected on the word of the late DJ Shay, the producer who Benny and many other members of Buffalo, New York’s Griselda movement called a mentor. Shay’s Parkside Studios was a hub for upstate rappers where Benny recorded most of his early work. One day, he met who would become one of his closest collaborators. “Spesh had came up there for a session. My mentor Shay was like come here, ‘let’s meet this kid,’” Benny recalls.
They were locked in from that moment. Back in 2008, the pair dropped Cocaine Cowboys, where Benny was named B.E.N.N.Y (Best Ever ‘N New York) and 38 Spesh was .38 Special. Benny calls that project “Stabbed and Shot before Stabbed and Shot.” The two have collaborated heavily since then (including on the standout “Sunday School” with Jadakiss). In 2022, they collectively released Trust The Sopranos, a collaboration project between their respective labels Trust Gang and Black Sopranos Family.
The two upstate MCs who first connected as aspirants, and are now collaborating on Stabbed & Shot II, released last week. All these years later, they arrive as stalwarts of the upstate New York scene they helped cultivate. The 16-track project, a followup to their 2018 project, is an unbridled dose of what makes both men great, with Spesh’s punches thrilling alongside Benny’s assonant rhymes.
On Stabbed & Shot II single “Brick Specials,” Spesh raps that he, “used to stash dope inside rice like mixed vegetables,” while Benny declares: “this for people who still mad I’m great / And for street runners, one bag of H and now they back in shape.” That tone is rife throughout the lyrically dense project, where both rappers go crazy over 70 BPM gems. Benny, a favorite among hip-hop heads, recently released his Def Jam debut Everybody Can’t Go, while 38 Spesh has stayed a bit more under the radar. Still, his unique cadence and outrageous punchlines are what made Busta Rhymes tell him he’s his favorite rapper — a compliment that directly resulted in Busta’s appearance on album cut “Jesus Arms.”
And now comes Stabbed & Shot II, a project that was initially slated for a 2020 release, but got pushed back as both men navigated a busy schedule. The project has two batches: one crafted predominantly around 2020, and another made in the last year or so in Buffalo, Rochester, and New York City. Benny estimates that “four or five” songs from that initial batch are on the project, including the bass-heavy “Coke Runs” with Ransom.
Benny and 38 Spesh talked to Rolling Stone about Stabbed & Shot II, and keeping lyricism in hip-hop.
When did the idea for the first Stabbed & Shot come about?
Benny: I had Tana Talk 3 done and was waiting to put it out. Tana Talk 3 was done for almost two years before it came out. While Westside Gunn is navigating the industry figuring the right time to put [TT3] out I’m kind of feeling antsy. We see the streets are hungry for the music and the fans is hungry for the music so we just got in there to cook up. I think it was [38’s] idea. It was the perfect time to cook up and warm up before my album came out.
How often did you record together?
Spesh: I’d say it’s probably only two or three songs that we didn’t record together. For the most of the album, we was together in the booth.
How, how rare is that for both of y’all individually? A lot of times people just email shit these days.
Spesh: Yeah, that’s mostly how it happened, but we know we be needing to lock in at a certain point to get that magic that we want.
Benny: It’s not even about this Stabbed and Shot shi, sometimes I just might need to lock in with bro just to be re-energized, be closer to some talent, to have that sparring match.
When y’all are in the studio together, does it feel competitive?
Benny: A hundred percent because I always want to maintain integrity of a song. I don’t want it to be a drop-off [during my verses]. You want to make sure you match the energy. Sometimes I come into the studio, I might have a team with me rollin’ a blunt but I can see him working and I’m like, “Ah shit, here you go getting off to that fast start. [Laughs] You got two crazy bars before I get to finish my blunt.”
What is the collaborative process like in terms of picking beats?
Benny: I’m not good at that. I just let this nigga pick beats. I do that with a lot of people I work with. You got to ask him.
Spesh: I know it’s a certain feel that we looking for, that we sound best over. We try to go through beats and when that one comes on, we both know it.
Are they any specific elements in a beat that y’all gravitate toward?
Benny: It’s the tempo for me. It could be like a little violin sound or the way the drum pattern is…it’s those things for me.
Spesh: Yeah, tempo plays a major part, you know. We rap over slower beats. People wouldn’t really understand that it’s a slower pace beat, but it allows us to actually be more wordy, you know what I’m saying?
What’s the science of going back and forth in a verse?
38 Spesh: We just randomly [realize], “Alright, it’s about time to do it.” We don’t like to go too long without doing it. So if we did a bunch [of songs] where we didn’t, we know it’s like all right it’s time to go back and forth again. The process of it is real simple. We just feed off each other. It’s like, just start a line and I’ll finish it. Then I start a line and you finish it.
There’s a conversation going on throughout the album. What’s the origin of that conversation?
Spesh: That conversation comes from a documentary that fans will be able to watch after purchasing some merchandise. We put a documentary together that shows us creating in-studio and having conversations about how we met each other. We cut up the conversation and use it as skits in between the album.
How did “Jesus Arms” with Busta Rhymes come together?
Spesh: Busta reached out to me and told me that I was his favorite rapper in the world right now. And I said, “Shit I need a verse.” [Room laughs]
Busta is really motivational. There’s several viral videos of him talking to somebody, shaking their hand, biggin’ them up. Did you have that kind of experience with him the first time you met him?
Benny: Yeah. I think that’s important to do. When we lay our path for guys who following our path, we should embrace them. That’s all that showed me, that he’s embracing niggas and letting niggas know “I see what you’re doing, keep doing it.” He knows what that means to guys because he could be the opposite way. He could be like “I don’t want to go over there and tell these boys I’m proud of them and tell Spesh I’m his favorite rapper and I might make his head blow up.” Cause shit like that do happen, but he said fuck all that. He do his part and he encourages us, like, “I fuck with you, I see what you’re doing.”
How did “Power” with El Camino come about?
Spesh: Well tthat was one of them beats that when we heard, we definitely looked at each other like “Yeah, this one’s the one.” We started rapping, going back and forth, and we left the hook open. There wasn’t no hook on it at first and then Camino hopped on [the song] and took it home.
Benny, you had a line on Brick Specials,” you said, “Half the state switched they hustle as soon as they heard us on rap on Sway.” Can you speak to seeing the upstate scene accelerate so rapidly after y’all started elevating?
Benny: That was a eureka moment for a lot of people where we from. I’m the same nigga who used to hand my CDs out at gas stations, I’m the same nigga who used to burn my own CDs. Sometimes put the insert in there, sometimes you might have to write on this shit, you know what I’m saying? And walk around with a napsack selling my shit hand to hand before so for people to see me in that light, they felt like it was light at the end of the tunnel for them. I feel that made people want to get back in the game and that made people get hungrier.
How often y’all would see each other when you were grinding and doing the other things that up and coming artists do?
Benny: All the time. Like he said, he would come to Buffalo a lot recording. There was a time when he was locked up and then time I was locked up, but I remember during the Trust era, I was going to Rochester all the time, recording and shit like that. Even when life was happening around us, I mean having kids, losing family members, prison and everything like that. We still just at it, you know what I mean?
When it comes to a smaller city that might not really be on hip hop map as of yet, what do you think it’ll take for them to get on the map? Do you feel like it’s as simple as like one or two movements that are doing their numbers?
Benny: Just like you said, one or two movements because it can’t be just one person. Cause that’s just that person, that’s not that area. And have your sound, something that you’re known for. You think about [the] people [who] come out of these cities that got their own sound.
I feel like they say the upstate western New York sound is the gritty sound…[cities should] just have a niche. Something that you’re known for, something that’s [like], “Okay that’s what these boys do.”
How do you feel about the BET Hip-Hop awards not having ciphers this year?
Benny: I love the BET Awards and I feel it’s motivation for people to keep on fucking with it, you know what I’m saying? Because it’s our job. To me personally it’s kind of catered to the women because they know the women are the ones who will watch that shit. Every year, the biggest artist, they never go to that shit, for their reasons. It seems like they give the women the floor all the time, which is good, the women running shit. But it just seems like to me, like they do that to patronize them because they know they going to come. I took my daughter last year and I would go again, but that’s just what it seems like to me. Sometimes they don’t get the true representation of hip hop. They get the trendy shit, you know what I’m saying?
Do you feel like the art of freestyle in general is less appreciated these days?
Benny: Fuck no. I’m about to burn Sway down tomorrow. You could make or break your career of them freestyles. The people who say that are the niggas who can’t freestyle, who can’t rap. That’s the shit that they say.
Spesh: I agree.
Do you think every rapper should be able to freestyle? Do you hold it against rappers who can’t freestyle? Not even off the top of the head, but they can’t do an acappella or can’t freestyle off of a beat?
Spesh: Well if you can’t rap on the beat and get busy, it will be held against you if you try to stand next to us.
Benny: I’ll go with his answer right there.
Spesh: But if you make good music, you make good music. You ain’t go to worry about our code or follow our rules unless you trying to play on our court, you know what I’m saying?
Benny: Right, right, right.
Spesh: We don’t judge. However a person get the song done. It’s talented people that can’t do what we do that still make great music.
How do you feel about wordplay and punchlines these days? Do you feel like newer artists are carrying it where it once was or do you feel like that art has kind of fallen off a little bit, when it comes to punchlines and wordplay and shit that’ll make them rewind.
Benny: I don’t think it’s fallen off, I just don’t think it’s represented in the light, you feel what I’m saying? They could have niggas like us at the BET Awards for five years straight. People be like yo, “Bars is the shit,” but that’s not what they choose to do. They choose to go to what’s trendy. And they ignore this level of hip-hop for some reason. I’m not saying [just] BET, I’m not speaking about them in general, but within this constitution of hip hop, that happens. That’s why what we do is so special because it’s rare.
Do y’all have a process for how you construct punchlines?
Spesh: I’m going to be honest with you. I come up with the punch first. Spesh: The first thing I think about is the punch, then I think about how I’m going to get there.My whole process is a punch. I’m like a, I’m like a puncher. If this shit was a sport, you know, you got niggas that got jump shots, who could dunk…I’m a puncher. So the first thing I do is I think of the punch.
Benny: The best punches start with the punch.
As a rapper, how often do you think about lines while going about your day?
Spesh: So this is what happens: When you in rap mode, it’s like a switch [where] everything becomes a punchline.
Benny: Right. Right.
Spesh: You could be sitting here and anything you say, it could just turn into a punch. But you have to actually be in that mode or you won’t see it. When I’m in that mode and I can see it, it’s like everything that comes is a punch.
What do you feel like are the biggest similarities and differences between the industry and the streets?
Benny: In the streets, you necessarily not getting money with niggas you don’t fuck with. It can’t happen. You ain’t getting money from with niggas you don’t fuck with. Like when you step in these offices and deal with these people they wear a face. There’s money to be made with you. And violence is not particularly a part of this game so you give money to people you don’t particularly care for a lot of time in this business.
Spesh: The rap game is like the motherfuckin’ crack game. Got to stay hustling and shit. If you don’t hustle, you don’t eat in this shit. I feel like a lot of people feel like you can just rap and get somewhere from rapping or being a good rapper. I tell people all the time that it ain’t rapping that’s what did it for me, it’s actually knowing how to hustle. It’s a lot of similarities between this shit and the streets because you know, you got to just hustle.
What do you see in the near future for Trust Gang?
Spesh: I’m getting into film right now. I see a lot more of that. A whole new way of delivering music. Right now, I’m premiering music inside a theater. I put visuals with the music I’m releasing. I just did that with my last project and I see a lot more of that coming in the future. It’s like “Thriller,” like Streets Is Watching. I’m taking the album and putting the actual storyline behind it. A long video, but it’s dialogue in between, then it goes back into the video and you know, it’s the width of the album. I just did that and premiered it in Angelika Theater and it was a great time. It was like a concert outside the theater. People was drinking, smoking, rapping. It was a fire experience. So I see a lot more of that in the future. I’m thinking that’s going to be my routine [for every album. I see a couple rappers do it as well, but my vision always separates myself from what they doing.
I always wanted to get into film and I always thought that I wanted to drop a film and go tour with it. You know what I mean? So [my last project] provided me the opportunity to do it without going so hard shooting the full length.
Do you have plans to do a full length?
Spesh: Definitely. I have full lengths already wrote, you know. It’s like my internship.
You wrote them yourself?
Spesh: Definitely. Everything on this film, I wrote. Storyline, I scouted every location, I casted every person, I did wardrobe on everything. I wrote every scene. I did everything on this.
Did you do like any reading or studying about like the film writing process?
Spesh: Yeah, back in the day, when I was nineteen years old, I actually auditioned for a Paramount Picture film. It was introduced to me by Green Lantern because he was working with Russell Simmons and I was promised the part in the film. When I was young, they had me studying with acting coaches and sitting down and learning. And I had to sit down and go for it full fledge, but I auditioned for the same part as Mario, not knowing and I didn’t get the part because of that. If I would have picked any other role, I possibly would have made it. The movie was Freedom Riders with Hilary Swank.
Benny, what does the future hold for BSF (Black Soprano Family)?
Benny: [We’re] negotiating some deals right now [for] Rick Hyde and Fuego Base. Just trying to take this shit further, trying to navigate so I can get to the next level from there. One step at a time but you know, [we’re] having meetings with these distributors and labels seeing what’s the best option for us [that] will carry us to the next chapter of this.
